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Promethium-
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 06-18-2012 03:10 PM / profile
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Has anyone had meaningful experience with this set?
Are there opportunities to use more classes and is the shrike more or less powerful?
How else does it compare with 7 v 7?
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Mindflayr
TeamWarfare Vet
TWL Retired Staff
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| 06-20-2012 04:14 PM / profile
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Not sure how many have tried it recently (as in before the game went live with 7 v7 as the main comp format)...
but Void has a Scrim tonight testing 10v10 Naked Spawn so some of the players may have some feedback tomorrow.
Of course Naked spawn changes everything anyways so who knows...
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Mindflayr
TeamWarfare Vet
TWL Retired Staff
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| 06-21-2012 05:05 PM / profile
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Thought I would post some Thoughts Post-Scrim.
1st - the Ruleset we played by:
-10v10 Naked - Even with Gens up you still had to Suit up
-No Banned/Restricted Items/Classes/BaseUpgrades except Strikes
-Pooled Credits - Regular Cost (7v7 Costs I believe)
-Deployable Invs were Ammo Only
We wanted a fully open scrim to see what would evolve.
We Played Kata, Arx & Tart
Thoughts: The Maps arent made for Naked at all. Inventory Placements are terrible which allowed very easy Bottleknecking. However, that was really the only negative. The play was fun, very strategic, and more innovative that I had prev experienced. Strategies shifted often throughout each map, sometimes from Run to Run. Everyone commented that despite needing time to suit up, there was a lot more action and variety to the gameplay. When you cleared a Flag or the Sniper it stayed clear longer, unless the enemy intelligently naked clustered the flag (a la t1/t2). The Sniper Respawn was annoying since it was completely unnecessary with suitups.
Conclusion after 1 test: For me at least, I wont play 7 man again. Bland, boring, repetative, call it what you will, it didnt hold a candle for me to how fun this scrim was, despite the bad inv locations and lack of restrictions. I think 10 v 10 , with a few tweaks, (and possible another server flag or 3 from HiRez) will be completely viable for comp,and a very fun gametype.
Void/57th are planning another test next week. Maybe we can get a spec to obs it to see how it plays out from a specs POV. We discussed some tweaks to the server settings, and are going to try the following adjustments:
1) RINVs at 3000 credits
2) RINVs will give Full Suitup capability if Gens are Up. If gens are down they wont do anything.
3) If GENs are down you cant calldown the RINVs either
No other tweaks - still no Class/weapon/Upgrade restrictions, although we were on the same page that Lvl 1 assets are too weak and Lvl 4 Assets are too strong. Without a Server Flag to limit them from HiRez.. we will leave it. Thats it I believe. Will report back Post Scrim if I play in it, or will ask someone else to post if im not around.
TL R - 10v10 Naked (even with bad Inv placement) was More fun (for Me) than 7 v7 and i think once more teams try it out it may pick up steam as a preferred ladder for many teams, even as 7v7 remains the primary ESPORTS ladder.
With the idea of being
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TomAsaR
TWL Member
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| 06-21-2012 08:13 PM / profile
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You say there wasn't much diff with no restrictions but I'm still skeptical.
I think plasma could be ok with all the new weapons if you lowered DH to 400 instead of 5.
Jackal is just the worst though, I don't see any competitive situation where that weapon will ever be allowable.
I know some parts of my ruleset are not possible right now. (setting limits on the upgrades) but I certainly would like to see that one tried aswell.
basic diffs are:
Vehicle limits. (1 shrike/tank but with free unlimited grav cycles)
limits of MK2 assets with MK4 Sensor being the only exception.
Plasma, Jackal, Whiteout bans as well. Jackal and whiteouts being the most important, I could live with plasma even now.
And some kind of higher deployable inv cost. (5k individual, 10-15 er so pooled) I forget exactly what I wrote in my last post. But you shouldn't be able to get around getting spawn suffocated too easilly is my main concern.
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Void|ByTor
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 06-22-2012 01:59 AM / profile
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It was interesting. The main issue was map design for 10 vs 10 and spawning naked. The invo's just aren't where they need to be. So hopefully making them gen powered and fully loaded with all classes will allow us to design the map with invo's where we want them. This also keeps the gens VERY important!
Regarding the jackal/plasma/whiteout issue. I honestly don't think any of us changed our loadouts to 'exploit' those weapons. Neither team used the jackal or the plasma for this scrim. But I still want to keep the game with no restrictions. (cept for tacticals/orbitals) After all both teams have access to the same tools.
This ruleset truly brings in many more options when it comes to strategy and allocation of assets. We have 2 scrims next week (one vs REV and another vs 57th again) with this adjusted setup. Should be fun!
http://voidengineers.enjin.com
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Mindflayr
TeamWarfare Vet
TWL Retired Staff
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| 06-22-2012 02:25 AM / profile
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As Bytor said (and I should have mentioned) .. while we played with 0 restrictions, nobody retooled their loadouts. A Few of us ran whiteouts on 1-2 runs, but there were no jackals or plasma at all, and no w/o abuse. No Limit on Shrikes but niether team ran more than 1. We tried 2 Snipers on Tart and that was interesting, but balanced due to the 10s spawn delay and need to suit up.
Its a work in progress hence starting with No Restrictions/Changes and working from there. If Vex is interested in participating int he testing phase you should talk to bytor, and the leaders of 57th and Rev in IRC as the testing rulesetys will be tweaked based on scrim experiences.
The main pointfor me though is.. imight actually sign up on the ladder now. 7v7 = bleh. 10 v 10 naked was already fun, even without the setup tweaked to make it good for these maps.
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TomAsaR
TWL Member
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| 06-22-2012 08:35 PM / profile
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I'm sure that when just playing for fun that no restrictions can fine and I'm sure it was.
That being said, what I'm worried about is whats going to happen when people are playing for keeps.
say...#1 spot on the ladder, THEN do you see the 2 shrikes, 3-4 jackals or 4 raiders spamming 12 whiteouts in your face every run.
Thats what I'm worried about. I don't want those things to be a possibility in that situation.
honestly I don't want even 1 jackal...no-one likes getting 1 shotted in heavy by someone whos invisible. In the hands of another class it would be just plain OP but on the inf it's the worst balanced weapon ever devised.
Should only explode when stuck on targets at least.
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Void|ByTor
TeamWarfare Vet
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-Warhawk
TWL Member
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| 06-24-2012 09:03 PM / profile
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To be fair, I never even saw someone using normally banned weapons. I'm for the same weapon restrictions as 7s. Playing against them just isn't fun no matter team size. Plus, it wasn't extremely organized play on either side - this was a first go for both teams.
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FatElvis
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 06-25-2012 03:41 PM / profile
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Our 57th Scrim with void was good. A lot more fun than 7v7. Less restrictions, more strategy, and gens actually mattered! We will test again this week upping the price on supply stations to $7000 and allowing them to be used for class changes.
Overall, I still see NO NEED to restrict the number classes / number of vehicles or weapons to use. That's just arbritrary rules that have to then be enforced later. Both teams can use it...so again...it's totally FAIR. Just because you don't LIKE it being used against you is not a reason.
I'm still betting you will see a LOT of variation on how teams choose to play. Yes infiltrators are powerful...but so are snipers. So are shrike pilots. Lots of ways for teams to counter and overcome if we don't restrict.
Post edited by FatElvis at 6/25/2012 3:45:50 PM
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FatElvis
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 06-25-2012 04:00 PM / profile
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(57TH) Nudist Colony Server - Online for Public Testing
We encourage anyone interested to connect to our nudist server in the evenings (eastern timezone) for some old-school Tribes Game play. It only takes a few people in the server to get it filled up. The ruleset matches what's being tested for 10v10 ladder....and we want to make this server a popular oasis for T1/T2 vets long-term.
57th Teamspeak Server: http://ts3.mthometech.com:9998 pass=gamer
*Please avoid swearing and use of Lords' name to avoid offending others
FULL SERVER SETTINGS (BEING TESTED FOR 10v10 Ladder):
Time Settings: (standard TWL)
-Warm up = 60 sec
-Game Time Limit = 25 min
-Overtime limit = 60 min
-Respawn Time = 5 sec
Score Settings:
-Score to Win = 5 Caps
Player Settings
-Classes Allowed = all
-Spawn Types = Naked Pathfinder
-Minimum Level = None
-Maximum Level = None
Team Settings:
-Max Players=32
-Team Join Type = Unbalanced
-Autobalance in Game = Disabled
-Base Destruction Req = OFF
-Pool Team Credits = Enabled
Base Settings:
-Base Objectives = Enabled
-Base Upgrades = Enabled
-Generator Regen = Disabled
-Generator Destroyable = Enabled
-Powered Deployables = Disabled
Vehicle Settings:
-Health Multiplier = x1
-Grav Cycle Limit = 14 per Team (so not restricted)
-Grav Cycle Price = 5000 credits
-Beowulf Limit = 14 per Team (so not restricted)
-Beowulf Price = 10,000 credits
-Shrike Limit = 14 per Team (so not restricted)
-Shrike Price = 10,000 credits
Call-In Settings:
-Powered Callins = Enabled
-Tactical Strike (Call-in Active) = Disabled
-Orbital Strike (Call-in Active) = Disabled
-Supply Drop
--> Call-In Active = Enabled
--> Price = $7000 credits
--> Cooldown Time = 30 sec
--> Build Up Time = 2 sec
--> Ammo Only = Disabled
Friendly Fire Settings:
-Friendly Fire (FF) = Enabled
-FF Damage Multiplier = x1
-FF on Deployables = Enabled
-FF on Base Assets = Enabled
-Kill Limit (Autokick) = OFF
-Damage Limit (Autokick) = OFF
Post edited by FatElvis at 6/25/2012 4:25:27 PM
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TomAsaR
TWL Member
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| 06-25-2012 07:51 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: FatElvis
Our 57th Scrim with void was good. A lot more fun than 7v7. Less restrictions, more strategy, and gens actually mattered! We will test again this week upping the price on supply stations to $7000 and allowing them to be used for class changes.
Overall, I still see NO NEED to restrict the number classes / number of vehicles or weapons to use. That's just arbritrary rules that have to then be enforced later. Both teams can use it...so again...it's totally FAIR. Just because you don't LIKE it being used against you is not a reason.
I'm still betting you will see a LOT of variation on how teams choose to play. Yes infiltrators are powerful...but so are snipers. So are shrike pilots. Lots of ways for teams to counter and overcome if we don't restrict.
Again FatElvis, I'm sure your match was fun and no-one was abusing anything but what I'M worried about is whats going to happen when people are doing anything and everything to win even if it includes severe abuse of something. (say 4 raiders spamming whiteouts 12+ every run and just ignoring the gens)
What about when theres bad blood? When we get a standoff and you get serounded by 5 jackals popping up out of no-where at the same time and no-where to run.
Or when a team decides it's going to run 3 or more shrikes...
4 sniper 1 infiltrator (for the pick up on the return) break team.
possibilities are endless...in a bad way. All of those things I just listed aren't going to feel anything like T1 (maybe the 3+ shrikes would feel like T2 but otherwise...)
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Void|ByTor
TeamWarfare Vet
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dienasty
TWL Member
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| 06-25-2012 08:46 PM / profile
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since Hi-Rez isn't done changing things (and may never be) it seems a bit premature to disallow/ban things at this time.
Once things are a bit further along (comp in full swing & changes/balances less frequent), then a rule set could become more rigid.
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Signod
TWL Member
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| 06-25-2012 11:38 PM / profile
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I just got out of my first 10v10 scrim with void i belive
Thoughts on the ruleset:
Most things are fine with the ruleset, i generally feel that upgrades are currently a bit too cheap
Notably:
Inventory stations are probably too cheap @ 7k for what they do, they should be a stopgap solution to a gen being down not a total solution i think more towards 10 or 12k would be more in line with what were were earning in the match
Shrikes/tanks may be about right, however 15k may be a more appropriate price
Upgrades are cheap, and i think the gen upgrade being cheap is a good thing since it should be defendable
THAT being said if it were possible to separate turret upgrades from the gen i think that would be excellent, as fully upgraded turrets were sniping cappers out of the air and i think that that may be a tad OP
As for what should be cheaper:
The grav cycle should not be a huge investment of credits
5k is huge and nobody will spend that much if credits become a thing the team needs to manage
Reserving space here for more feedback when i get more scrims in
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TomAsaR
TWL Member
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| 06-27-2012 03:06 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Void|ByTor
I agree to banning:
raider plasma...
jackal and smoke nades...
everything else is fair game.
Smoke nades but not whiteouts? intresting. I've found whiteouts to be infinately more annoying then smokes.
I actually think the smoke are what make inf really viable, also not being able to do the massive damage that stickies do is a significant trade off.
If whiteouts are allowed really no reason not to use them if your a raider I think. They're soo easy to rely on if you play raider but can't get kills and need blind opponents to be able to win duels. Or are not good enough at clearing and need the timed blind to get their job done.
Also rediculous on standoffs. really hard to win as a Holding team if you get 9 whiteouts chucked in your face and can't see for 10+ seconds white your opponents get to take free shots with the best automatic in the game with no fear of getting hit back during that time.
It's just too much.
You compare that to the smoke, not even close in terms of which is most OP. Smoke is only OP if the jackal is allowed. With the other weapons you sacrifice your invisibility when you use them anyways.
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rayne41
TWL Member
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| 07-15-2012 10:00 AM / profile
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Any Idea when 10 v 10 will go live?
Can't wait.
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-Hybrid
TeamWarfare Vet
TWL Retired Staff
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| 08-05-2012 11:32 PM / profile
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*BUMP*
Have any other teams scrimmed 10v10 with proposed rulesets? I'd really like to see this ladder go up asap considering the 5v5 LT ladder is just about ready. As is the case with the arena ladder, we don't need to utilize a "perfect" ruleset in order to get the ladder open for challenges. I do understand the config for the 10v10 ladder is much more complex than arena/LT, and since we *may* be dealing with important things like naked spawn and all weapons allowed, I'm waiting to see more discussion. Well, that's really the only point of bumping this thread now. Discuss rulesets! 
Post edited by -Hybrid at 8/5/2012 11:33:09 PM
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acr0
TWL Member
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| 08-12-2012 10:32 AM / profile
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Is there a point to discussing rule sets for 10v10?
I mean, at first glance, there are only ten teams on the ladder...
at closer look, you'll see 5 of those teams won't be able to compete on the ladder as they have less than 10 members, with several sitting at one member.
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-Hybrid
TeamWarfare Vet
TWL Retired Staff
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| 08-12-2012 11:32 AM / profile
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Yeah, but that's kind of the point of discussing a ruleset. Your observations are spot on; the ladder right now is nowhere near where it should be to sustain any form of competition. If an attractive ruleset can be formed it should technically get some more teams on the ladder that otherwise would not consider playing 10v10.
I think we're all aware of the underlying factors that are hindering the longevity of such a ladder. Many teams simply aren't interested in 10v10 (since 7v7 has been the main push) and the community has shrunken from when the ladder was opened. However, we should try to get all of the options we have available out of the way before giving up on this ladder.
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TheMadZealot
TySoft's Luvva
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| 08-22-2012 11:25 PM / profile
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Open this ladder already.. my team wants to play this with whatever rules...we are one of the teams that don't have ten on our roster not because we don't have 10 but because the ladder is not active. If you open this ladder we will have more than 10 the following day. Tribes has historically been 10s...open this ladder already. If you need an admin I know someone that would ne happy to do it.
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