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SixShotSean
TeamWarfare Vet
Retired Sr. Staff
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| 07-18-2012 10:17 AM / profile
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http://blacklight-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=339281
This is posted from a discussion on the Blacklight Forums.
Originally posted by: WNxGuilte
Blacklight: Retribution Scrimmage Ruleset by WNxGuilte (7/1/2012)
Gametype: Domination
Maps: Undecided
Banned:
All Depot Items (Except Health & Ammo)
All Special Ammo
Heavy Assault Rifle (Until Patched)
Burst Fire Rifle (Optional)
Nodes (If able to in Premium Servers without destroying the player's nodes)
All Heroes
Limitations:
1 Lethal Grenade, 2 Special Grenades*
1 Barricade Per Team
Lethal Grenades:
HE Grenade
Frag Grenade
Shock Grenade
Proximity Mine
Stun Mine
Special Grenades:
EMP Grenade
Digi Grenade
Toxic Grenade
*All players are allowed to have a HRV Blackout along with their 1 Lethal and Special Grenade
Recommended Things (Optional):
In case of players claiming or actually using banned items, all players should screen shot their load out with the scoreboard up to be used as proof at the start of the map. This is recommended and not a must do. But I would definitely recommend it for tournaments, especially if banning items is not an ability in Premium Servers.
Recommended Map Rotation:
1st Map: Heavy Metal
2nd Map: Vortex
3rd Map: Vertigo*
*Since there are very few balanced maps, it's really hard to choose a map set. The only way this would be solved would be to play both sides. The player with the higher total after both sides would be the winner (No score limit, 10 minute time limit). But we are unsure of what premium servers will allow. So since we need a 3rd map, and the most disagreed upon map is probably Vertigo, I am recommending it be Map 3 in a BO3.
SixShotSean
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SixShotSean
TeamWarfare Vet
Retired Sr. Staff
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| 07-18-2012 10:18 AM / profile
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Standard TWL style is to play 1 map best of 3 Rounds. If it needs to go to a 3rd Round the team with the higher ticket count gets 3rd round side choice.
What maps seem good for Domination Play?
SixShotSean
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UnlimitedRecon
TWL Member
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| 07-18-2012 10:19 AM / profile
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Yup. This is what we're probably going to be using for TWL. Game mechanics are subject to change, so the ruleset might be altered in the future.
For DOM play, we usually like to switch maps, so it would best of 3 on different maps. We can go with the TWL style though, there would be no problems with that.
For DOM play, Heavy Metal, Vertigo, Vortex, and MAYBE Piledriver are the best maps. The spawns for these maps for these maps are relatively good, and point control and point distance and critical.
Post edited by UnlimitedRecon at 7/18/2012 10:21:38 AM
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Aggh
TWL Member
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| 07-18-2012 11:13 AM / profile
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Toxic nade needs to be limited. There's been talk of it replacing 2 special slots if you use it. Otherwise it's too easy for a team to just spam them in on a dom point.
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UnlimitedRecon
TWL Member
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| 07-18-2012 11:22 AM / profile
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I don't think limiting the toxic nade would be effective. Loads of times in matches (and sometimes scrimmages) two or three of my teammates and I have rushed into a toxic nade, healed after passing it, and went on to cap the point that the enemy team was protecting. And it's not like the moment you stand in a toxic nade you die. You usually have 15 - 20 seconds (at least 10 in my experience) to heal up, and that is ample time to get away and sometimes even get a full heal from a depot. It's not a insta-death weapon ya know.
Maybe we could limit the amount that a team as a whole could use (only 2 people can use toxic nades or something like that).
Post edited by UnlimitedRecon at 7/18/2012 11:23:32 AM
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Aggh
TWL Member
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| 07-18-2012 11:28 AM / profile
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If even two tox nades are thrown on a spot it's pretty much instant death for anyone that walks through it. We've done plenty of testing on it and it's obnoxiously effective when you want to rush a dom point since it really limits your opponents' movements, especially in tight dom points like A in vortex.
Post edited by Aggh at 7/18/2012 11:51:42 AM
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Wubbers
Competition Staff
NA Ladder Admin
Blacklight: Retribution
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| 07-18-2012 12:19 PM / profile
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Rules have been updated
Gamemode: Domination 6 v 6
Maps (Best of 3)
Map 1: Heavy Metal
Map 2: Vortex
Map 3: Vertigo
Banned:
All Depot Items (Health and Ammo Allowed)
All Heroes
All Special Ammo
Nodes (If possible in Premium Servers)
Heavy Assault Rifle
Any Zen only receiver
Proximity Mine
Stun Mine
Limitations:
1 Barricade Per Team
1 Sniper Per Team
1 Lethal Gear Item
2 Special Gear Items
HRV Blackout
Lethal Gear Items:
HE Grenade
Frag Grenade
Toxic Grenade
Shock Grenade
Special Grenades:
EMP Grenade
Digi Grenade
General Rules:
Teams decided on what team goes Alpha and who goes Bravo before the match. They then decide on who makes the room and the password. The max players must be set to 12. The team then waits till 9:00 on the clock to spawn. Players who spawn early must leave the game and rejoin. If teams are not situated by 9:00, the map is restarted. The reason for this is so the
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Aggh
TWL Member
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| 07-18-2012 12:43 PM / profile
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Making it a lethal nade will just cut out it's use entirely. Making people decide between it and other specials will limit it's use but not completely cut it out from play. It'll make decision making as far as special nades a bit more variable. Otherwise people will just run a lethal, digi, blackout and emp.
Post edited by Aggh at 7/18/2012 12:44:11 PM
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TitaniumSquirrel
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 01:06 AM / profile
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This is an alternative (less restrictive) ruleset we in EXS have been using and have had good reactions to it. It allows for more freedom on loadouts, encourages team cooperation, and still minimizes spam.
This is a set ideal for 5v5 or 6v6 Domination. Map rotations haven't been addressed because it's currently impossible to choose the map you play on until Premium private servers are released.
http://blacklight-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=368361
Originally posted by: TitaniumSquirrel
Banned:
* All depot items except Health & Ammo Refills
* Heavy Assault Rifle (until reasonably nerfed)
* Burst Fire Rifle (until reasonably nerfed)
* All Special Ammo types (Toxic, Incendiary, Electro, Explosive)
* All Heroes
* Any ZEN-Only Receiver
* Melee Weapons (Including Throwing Knives)
Limitations:
* 1 Barricade Per Team
* 1 Lethal Grenade
* 1 Mine
* 2 Special Grenades
Lethal Grenades:
* HE Grenade
* Frag Grenade
* Shock Grenade
* Toxic Grenade
Mines:
* Proximity Mine
* Stun Mine
* HRV Blackout
Special Grenades:
* EMP Grenade
* Digi Grenade
Post edited by TitaniumSquirrel at 7/19/2012 1:58:40 PM
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Aggh
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 11:27 AM / profile
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5v5 does not work properly with any map except for the possible exception of helo deck.
The distances needed to be covered on most maps mean that once a push on a site is repelled, spawns will put you far away enough to put you at a significant disadvantage. It also makes defending sites harder since rotations won't allow for much more than 2-3 people covering a control poit, which means to actually defend a site, you will almost always have to leave your other capped control points virtually undefended.
Additionally, spawn traps are much harder to break out of in 5v5 and all that much easier to force.
It makes for a constant flipping of control points that devalues team work and strategy and overall makes the mode less competitive.
tl;dr 6v6 is pretty much the agreed minimum for teams when you take into consideration the size of the maps.
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strychzilla
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 03:32 PM / profile
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Titaniums ruleset is ideal as it reduces explosive's spam.
5v5 is optimal - The arguments of the maps being too large for 5v5 is mostly speculation.
Maps that are too large for competitive play are Offshore, Containment, and Vortex.
Piledriver is no good because it is very easy to force the enemy team to spawn at B and spawn kill until the match is over.
Best maps in the game currently are
Heavy Metal
Seaport
Vertigo
Next would be
HeloDeck (small which can cause awkward spawns)
Deadlock
Domination is the preferred mode at the moment. That can change in the future if they release a stopwatch mode or we get more information on siege mode.
Post edited by strychzilla at 7/19/2012 3:33:36 PM
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Aggh
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 04:41 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: strychzilla
Titaniums ruleset is ideal as it reduces explosive's spam.
5v5 is optimal - The arguments of the maps being too large for 5v5 is mostly speculation.
Maps that are too large for competitive play are Offshore, Containment, and Vortex.
Piledriver is no good because it is very easy to force the enemy team to spawn at B and spawn kill until the match is over.
Best maps in the game currently are
Heavy Metal
Seaport
Vertigo
Next would be
HeloDeck (small which can cause awkward spawns)
Deadlock
Domination is the preferred mode at the moment. That can change in the future if they release a stopwatch mode or we get more information on siege mode.
It's not speculation. Everyone started scrimmming with 5v5 because that's what we'd all played in other games. It just doesn't work, pure and simple.
Helo deck has incredibly predictable spawns and in some ways is one of the more competitive maps for dom. There are two problems with it that prevent it from being viable.
First is the fact that one of the teams can spawn up top on C. This gives them the opportunity to cap C and shut down any cap on B and to a lesser degree A, right from the beginning. There is a fix inbound for this, but even the devs aren't sure exactly when it will be coming in.
The other problem is how easy it is to force a spawn trap so that the enemy team keeps spawning across from B behind the container unit.
Deadlock isn't balanced. The team that spawns on C has too long of an approach to the other two points and can easily get stuck on C from the beginning if the other team plays smart.
Also, vortex is probably the most balanced map in the game atm. It has the closest thing to equidistant initial spawns and makes rotations incredibly important with A site as a strong focal point that ensures a constant fight. It is possible to force a spawn trap where people will spawn back near B, but it's not impossible to break out of, similar in many ways to the spawn trap you can force A in heavy metal
It seems strange that you'd say that containment and vortex are too large, but Sea port is not. It's as least as large as either map.
Post edited by Aggh at 7/19/2012 4:53:49 PM
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Azaraki
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 05:00 PM / profile
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Has everyone come to a general consensus about the maps used? I would really like to see more than 3 maps in a pool. Random draw decides the team who chooses the first map in said pool, and loser chooses the map afterwards.
If all of the other maps are unbalanced, than the obvious choice is not to use those maps, but I would definitely like to see a viable map pool instead of simply using the top 3.
*Still from a spectator sport perspective for me.
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Guilte
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 05:00 PM / profile
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Me and crook have actually talked a lot lately and he agrees with this ruleset: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S5ooY7BxvEHFf_YqcTjrrEIMAfAngEeXr8YF1864jqo/edit
He said he was discussing it with the rest of EXS and that's all I've heard.
Originally posted by: Azaraki
Has everyone come to a general consensus about the maps used? I would really like to see more than 3 maps in a pool. Random draw decides the team who chooses the first map in said pool, and loser chooses the map afterwards.
If all of the other maps are unbalanced, than the obvious choice is not to use those maps, but I would definitely like to see a viable map pool instead of simply using the top 3.
*Still from a spectator sport perspective for me.
A lot of the maps are really one sided, so it's hard to choose a good map rotation. I agree that there needs to be more maps, but at this point in time there aren't many balanced maps.
Post edited by Guilte at 7/19/2012 5:02:57 PM
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Wubbers
Competition Staff
NA Ladder Admin
Blacklight: Retribution
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| 07-19-2012 05:02 PM / profile
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Also, we should cap the health at 200, It's really boring to watch/play with everyone having heavy armor, 200 and under allows for much more fast paced gameplay to happen.
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strychzilla
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 05:02 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Aggh
Originally posted by: strychzilla
Titaniums ruleset is ideal as it reduces explosive's spam.
5v5 is optimal - The arguments of the maps being too large for 5v5 is mostly speculation.
Maps that are too large for competitive play are Offshore, Containment, and Vortex.
Piledriver is no good because it is very easy to force the enemy team to spawn at B and spawn kill until the match is over.
Best maps in the game currently are
Heavy Metal
Seaport
Vertigo
Next would be
HeloDeck (small which can cause awkward spawns)
Deadlock
Domination is the preferred mode at the moment. That can change in the future if they release a stopwatch mode or we get more information on siege mode.
It's not speculation. Everyone started scrimmming with 5v5 because that's what we'd all played in other games. It just doesn't work, pure and simple.
Helo deck has incredibly predictable spawns and in some ways is one of the more competitive maps for dom. There are two problems with it that prevent it from being viable.
First is the fact that one of the teams can spawn up top on C. This gives them the opportunity to cap C and shut down any cap on B and to a lesser degree A, right from the beginning. There is a fix inbound for this, but even the devs aren't sure exactly when it will be coming in.
The other problem is how easy it is to force a spawn trap so that the enemy team keeps spawning across from B behind the container unit.
Deadlock isn't balanced. The team that spawns on C has too long of an approach to the other two points and can get stuck on C if the other team plays smart.
Also, vortex is probably the most balanced map in the game atm. It has the closest thing to equidistant initial spawns and makes rotations incredibly important with A site as a strong focal point that ensures a constant fight. It is possible to force a spawn trap where people will spawn back near B, but it's not impossible to break out of, similar in many ways to the spawn trap you can force A in heavy metal
It seems strange that you'd say that containment and vortex are too large, but Sea port is not. It's as least as large as either map.
I categorized Deadlock and Helodeck as a lower tier because of their flaws.
Vortex feels like 2 maps merged into 1. If you control A and the opposing team has C spawn it's over. The amount of time wasted traveling between C and A is huge unless you plan on getting sniped repeatedly from a frontal assault. The distances may be equal but once A is established and defended I wouldn't say the map is balanced.
Seaport is a large map but it's also an open one with mostly open sites. A sniper from either team can easily win/lose the match for your team. You don't have that option on Vortex.
Heavy Metal A spawn is pretty easy to break out of compared to Piledriver and helodeck controlled spawns.
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Guilte
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 05:04 PM / profile
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It's really easy to retake A domination on Vortex and even grab C. Learn the maps more and the spawning system. Just cause you don't know how to play a map, doesn't make it bad.
Sniping on Vortex is a must. You can snipe from C to top A Depot/Stairwell, A dom, and lower water.
Post edited by Guilte at 7/19/2012 5:08:00 PM
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Aggh
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 05:11 PM / profile
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I don't see how the fact that a map can let a single player make the difference makes it competitive. Or it being a sniper friendly map for that matter. It's a strange logic to apply when determining what makes a good map.
Vortex is also very sniper friendly so I'm kind of left wondering why you're applying that logic to differentiating it from sea port.
Also, go back and read the post your responding to. You'll note that when talking about A trap in heavy metal, I was talking about how it can be broken out of. Just like the B trap in Vortex.
Post edited by Aggh at 7/19/2012 5:12:03 PM
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`prophet
TeamWarfare Vet
TWL Retired Staff
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| 07-19-2012 05:17 PM / profile
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A simple rework of the spawns for each map, making them exactly the same for the initial spawn and playing each map twice (once on each side) would provide some more balance, making for a larger map pool.
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strychzilla
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 05:50 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Guilte
It's really easy to retake A domination on Vortex and even grab C. Learn the maps more and the spawning system. Just cause you don't know how to play a map, doesn't make it bad.
Sniping on Vortex is a must. You can snipe from C to top A Depot/Stairwell, A dom, and lower water.
It's easy when you're playing bad teams. Running around the vacant side of the map in order to restablish control can take over 60 seconds to execute. That is quite the advantage (if you're successful.) If you're used to forcing your way into A I would suggest you try that against teams that can aim.
I don't see how the fact that a map can let a single player make the difference makes it competitive. Or it being a sniper friendly map for that matter. It's a strange logic to apply when determining what makes a good map.
Vortex is also very sniper friendly so I'm kind of left wondering why you're applying that logic to differentiating it from sea port.
Also, go back and read the post your responding to. You'll note that when talking about A trap in heavy metal, I was talking about how it can be broken out of. Just like the B trap in Vortex.
What makes it competitive is that you can assault A from 2 different sides and both sides can be reach equally from spawn. The sites are open which makes camping it more difficult unlike Vortex where you have a fortress in A. The only negative the map has is B spawn which can be somewhat controlled but not camped like in Piledriver.
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strychzilla
theexsclan.com
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Aggh
TWL Member
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| 07-19-2012 06:07 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: strychzilla
Originally posted by: Guilte
It's really easy to retake A domination on Vortex and even grab C. Learn the maps more and the spawning system. Just cause you don't know how to play a map, doesn't make it bad.
Sniping on Vortex is a must. You can snipe from C to top A Depot/Stairwell, A dom, and lower water.
It's easy when you're playing bad teams. Running around the vacant side of the map in order to restablish control can take over 60 seconds to execute. That is quite the advantage (if you're successful.) If you're used to forcing your way into A I would suggest you try that against teams that can aim.
You make it sound like we've never done that 
We did it vs. an aimbot.
A vortex is one of the main reasons why the Tox nade needs to be limited. It's one of the most nadeable points in the game.
Tox+frags/He tag people up, EMP/Digi to blind them.
I don't see how the fact that a map can let a single player make the difference makes it competitive. Or it being a sniper friendly map for that matter. It's a strange logic to apply when determining what makes a good map.
Vortex is also very sniper friendly so I'm kind of left wondering why you're applying that logic to differentiating it from sea port.
Also, go back and read the post your responding to. You'll note that when talking about A trap in heavy metal, I was talking about how it can be broken out of. Just like the B trap in Vortex.
What makes it competitive is that you can assault A from 2 different sides and both sides can be reach equally from spawn. The sites are open which makes camping it more difficult unlike Vortex where you have a fortress in A. The only negative the map has is B spawn which can be somewhat controlled but not camped like in Piledriver.
You can assault A in vortex from 3 points. The tight quarters mean that defenders are very vulnerable to grenades. It's just a different type of map. That doesn't mean it's not competitive.
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