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William T. Sherman
TWL Member
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| 11-17-2011 03:21 PM / profile
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I don't disagree. I just wanted to highlight that most of the founding fathers wouldn't necessarily agree with libertarian ideology if they were alive today. It seemed like you were defending libertarianism on the basis that the founding fathers would largely agree with modern libertarian ideas.
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(SF) DirtyRatFink
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 04:24 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: questionmark
I don't disagree. I just wanted to highlight that most of the founding fathers wouldn't necessarily agree with libertarian ideology if they were alive today. It seemed like you were defending libertarianism on the basis that the founding fathers would largely agree with modern libertarian ideas.
I would like some evidence on why they would not agree. Instead of just taking your word for it.
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Nathan Bedford Forrest
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 04:53 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: (SF) DirtyRatFink
Originally posted by: questionmark
I don't disagree. I just wanted to highlight that most of the founding fathers wouldn't necessarily agree with libertarian ideology if they were alive today. It seemed like you were defending libertarianism on the basis that the founding fathers would largely agree with modern libertarian ideas.
I would like some evidence on why they would not agree. Instead of just taking your word for it.
No kidding. Libertarian ideology is based off of the philosophical movement known as the Age of Enlightenment or the Age of Reason, as Thomas Paine called it, during which the American Revolution took place, and of which Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin were major contributors, while James Madison, Patrick Henry, Sam Adams, John Taylor of Caroline, St. George Tucker, and George Mason, among many others, including the Federalists John Adams and George Washington, were also influenced by and influential on the Enlightenment.
And though he wasn't an American, I think it's worth noting that Adam Smith and his book, "The Wealth of Nations" is also a huge part of the Enlightenment movement and a core basis of libertarian ideology.
The Enlightenment also either gave us or helped shape the Scientific Method.
Post edited by Nathan Bedford Forrest at 11/17/2011 5:00:03 PM
_________________
See through the propaganda. Stop empowering and enriching the state by cheering its wars. Set aside the television talking points. Look at the world anew, without the prejudices of the past, and without favoring your own government’s version of things. Be decent. Be human. Do not be deceived by the Joe Bidens, the John McCains, the Barack Obamas and Hillary Clintons. Reject the biggest government program of them all. Peace builds. War destroys.
-Lew Rockwell
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burn!
Actual Veterinarian
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| 11-17-2011 05:01 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Killet
Newt!
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Cocytus
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 05:02 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: (SF) DirtyRatFink
Originally posted by: questionmark
I don't disagree. I just wanted to highlight that most of the founding fathers wouldn't necessarily agree with libertarian ideology if they were alive today. It seemed like you were defending libertarianism on the basis that the founding fathers would largely agree with modern libertarian ideas.
I would like some evidence on why they would not agree. Instead of just taking your word for it.
No kidding. Libertarian ideology is based off of the philosophical movement known as the Age of Enlightenment or the Age of Reason, as Thomas Paine called it, during which the American Revolution took place, and of which Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin were major contributors, while James Madison, Patrick Henry, Sam Adams, John Taylor of Caroline, St. George Tucker, and George Mason, among many others, including the Federalists John Adams and George Washington, were also influenced by and influential on the Enlightenment.
And though he wasn't an American, I think it's worth noting that Adam Smith and his book, "The Wealth of Nations" is also a huge part of the Enlightenment movement and a core basis of libertarian ideology.
I guess it wasn't such a great idea considering where we are now. You guys are like old dude's telling the kids to get off the grass. Those ideas are long gone. The good news is you are still more free than most people in this world. Why cry sooooo much?
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Nathan Bedford Forrest
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 05:05 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: (SF) DirtyRatFink
Originally posted by: questionmark
I don't disagree. I just wanted to highlight that most of the founding fathers wouldn't necessarily agree with libertarian ideology if they were alive today. It seemed like you were defending libertarianism on the basis that the founding fathers would largely agree with modern libertarian ideas.
I would like some evidence on why they would not agree. Instead of just taking your word for it.
No kidding. Libertarian ideology is based off of the philosophical movement known as the Age of Enlightenment or the Age of Reason, as Thomas Paine called it, during which the American Revolution took place, and of which Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin were major contributors, while James Madison, Patrick Henry, Sam Adams, John Taylor of Caroline, St. George Tucker, and George Mason, among many others, including the Federalists John Adams and George Washington, were also influenced by and influential on the Enlightenment.
And though he wasn't an American, I think it's worth noting that Adam Smith and his book, "The Wealth of Nations" is also a huge part of the Enlightenment movement and a core basis of libertarian ideology.
I guess it wasn't such a great idea considering where we are now. You guys are like old dude's telling the kids to get off the grass. Those ideas are long gone. The good news is you are still more free than most people in this world. Why cry sooooo much?
The Enlightenment didn't lead us to where we are now. The abandonment of the Enlightenment ideology and the subsequent creation of a large central state, just like the one's we left over in Europe, is why we are where we are now (thanks, Abe, Teddy, Woodrow, and Franklin).
The fact that people still exist who believe in those ideas, and even more so, that there is a major presidential candidate who espouses those ideas openly inside the American police state should be sufficient evidence that those ideas are not long gone. If anything, they are on the way back.
Post edited by Nathan Bedford Forrest at 11/17/2011 5:13:33 PM
_________________
See through the propaganda. Stop empowering and enriching the state by cheering its wars. Set aside the television talking points. Look at the world anew, without the prejudices of the past, and without favoring your own government’s version of things. Be decent. Be human. Do not be deceived by the Joe Bidens, the John McCains, the Barack Obamas and Hillary Clintons. Reject the biggest government program of them all. Peace builds. War destroys.
-Lew Rockwell
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Cocytus
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 05:50 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: (SF) DirtyRatFink
Originally posted by: questionmark
I don't disagree. I just wanted to highlight that most of the founding fathers wouldn't necessarily agree with libertarian ideology if they were alive today. It seemed like you were defending libertarianism on the basis that the founding fathers would largely agree with modern libertarian ideas.
I would like some evidence on why they would not agree. Instead of just taking your word for it.
No kidding. Libertarian ideology is based off of the philosophical movement known as the Age of Enlightenment or the Age of Reason, as Thomas Paine called it, during which the American Revolution took place, and of which Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin were major contributors, while James Madison, Patrick Henry, Sam Adams, John Taylor of Caroline, St. George Tucker, and George Mason, among many others, including the Federalists John Adams and George Washington, were also influenced by and influential on the Enlightenment.
And though he wasn't an American, I think it's worth noting that Adam Smith and his book, "The Wealth of Nations" is also a huge part of the Enlightenment movement and a core basis of libertarian ideology.
I guess it wasn't such a great idea considering where we are now. You guys are like old dude's telling the kids to get off the grass. Those ideas are long gone. The good news is you are still more free than most people in this world. Why cry sooooo much?
The Enlightenment didn't lead us to where we are now. The abandonment of the Enlightenment ideology and the subsequent creation of a large central state, just like the one's we left over in Europe, is why we are where we are now (thanks, Abe, Teddy, Woodrow, and Franklin).
The fact that people still exist who believe in those ideas, and even more so, that there is a major presidential candidate who espouses those ideas openly inside the American police state should be sufficient evidence that those ideas are not long gone. If anything, they are on the way back.
My assumption is that the ideas you believe are not superior if the majority want something else. Aren't you the arrogant fascist dictating that people are too stupid to understand why your ideas are better?
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Stryk
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:19 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: burn!
Originally posted by: Killet
Newt! Obama two terms it is, then. Thanks.
Post edited by Stryk at 11/17/2011 6:21:43 PM
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Stryk
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:21 PM / profile
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[some] Libertarians have become the Scientologists of politics and Ron Paul has become the their L. Ron Hubbard.
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Cocytus
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:23 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Stryk
Originally posted by: burn!
Originally posted by: Killet
Newt! Obama two terms it is, then.
The only person who can beat Obama is Cain. Every other Republican is too much of a Republican and Ron Paul is too fucking crazy for America.
It has to be Cain because he is black. Obama will play the down and out black guy from the ghetto who never got a chance and his first 4 years are proof of that. Nobody wanted to help him because he's black.
All the Republican party can do now is run a black guy and hope the people are to stupid to realize that he's Republican.
Ain't America grand.
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Stryk
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:28 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Stryk
Originally posted by: burn!
Originally posted by: Killet
Newt! Obama two terms it is, then.
The only person who can beat Obama is Cain. Every other Republican is too much of a Republican and Ron Paul is too fucking crazy for America.
It has to be Cain because he is black. Obama will play the down and out black guy from the ghetto who never got a chance and his first 4 years are proof of that. Nobody wanted to help him because he's black.
All the Republican party can do now is run a black guy and hope the people are to stupid to realize that he's Republican.
Ain't America grand. Cain lost my interest because he has one of the worst run campaigns ever.
They knew about the bimbos 10 days before it went public but failed to not only prepare for it, but get ahead of it. Then the foreign affairs foible.
The only explanation is that he hired a bunch of (1) yes men or (2) incompetents on his campaign staff. I suspect #1. As of right now, I'll pass.
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the penguin
Body cavity excavator
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:34 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
And though he wasn't an American, I think it's worth noting that Adam Smith and his book, "The Wealth of Nations" is also a huge part of the Enlightenment movement and a core basis of libertarian ideology.
the unabridged version of that book is unfortunately quite cumbersome. especially with the specific examples from his time. (note: i have not read the entire book)
also, have you read smith's theory of moral sentiments or any of david hume's writings?
_______________________
Originally posted by: the wierdo
There's nothing like a little child molestation to bring people together and rise above the partisanship  Originally posted by: Pudd¿nheäd
ive been wanting coq for some time now, and im goin for it on sunday! Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ
kok. i want kok. lots of kok.
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Cocytus
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:36 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Stryk
Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Stryk
Originally posted by: burn!
Originally posted by: Killet
Newt! Obama two terms it is, then.
The only person who can beat Obama is Cain. Every other Republican is too much of a Republican and Ron Paul is too fucking crazy for America.
It has to be Cain because he is black. Obama will play the down and out black guy from the ghetto who never got a chance and his first 4 years are proof of that. Nobody wanted to help him because he's black.
All the Republican party can do now is run a black guy and hope the people are to stupid to realize that he's Republican.
Ain't America grand. Cain lost my interest because he has one of the worst run campaigns ever.
They knew about the bimbos 10 days before it went public but failed to not only prepare for it, but get ahead of it. Then the foreign affairs foible.
The only explanation is that he hired a bunch of (1) yes men or (2) incompetents on his campaign staff. I suspect #1. As of right now, I'll pass.
Show me one person who is perfect and I'll vote for him or her. Look at Obama, he's a fucking joke. I'm telling you right now that if we run a white Republican we will lose. We need a woman, black or minority! Haven't you noticed how hard the liberals go after a Republican when they are a minority or female? They don't want them in the race. Hell, Palin would kick Obama's ass.
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Nathan Bedford Forrest
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:37 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Cocytus
Palin would kick Obama's ass.
_________________
See through the propaganda. Stop empowering and enriching the state by cheering its wars. Set aside the television talking points. Look at the world anew, without the prejudices of the past, and without favoring your own government’s version of things. Be decent. Be human. Do not be deceived by the Joe Bidens, the John McCains, the Barack Obamas and Hillary Clintons. Reject the biggest government program of them all. Peace builds. War destroys.
-Lew Rockwell
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burn!
Actual Veterinarian
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| 11-17-2011 06:39 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Stryk
Originally posted by: burn!
Originally posted by: Killet
Newt! Obama two terms it is, then.
The only person who can beat Obama is Cain. Every other Republican is too much of a Republican and Ron Paul is too fucking crazy for America.
It has to be Cain because he is black. Obama will play the down and out black guy from the ghetto who never got a chance and his first 4 years are proof of that. Nobody wanted to help him because he's black.
All the Republican party can do now is run a black guy and hope the people are to stupid to realize that he's Republican.
Ain't America grand.
^The worst political analysis I've seen in years.
Newt is the best for this country.
Romney is the most moderate and has the best chance to win.
Perry is a complete joke.
Cain is a complete idiot. Watching him debate is painful.
On the bright side Obama is a complete buffoon and blows at his job. Plus, Newt would fucking annihilate him in the debates.
Post edited by burn! at 11/17/2011 6:39:47 PM
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the penguin
Body cavity excavator
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:41 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Stryk
Cain lost my interest because he has one of the worst run campaigns ever.
They knew about the bimbos 10 days before it went public but failed to not only prepare for it, but get ahead of it. Then the foreign affairs foible.
The only explanation is that he hired a bunch of (1) yes men or (2) incompetents on his campaign staff. I suspect #1. As of right now, I'll pass.
i like what ive heard of cain's policies, but man are his latest gaffes damaging to his campaign. hes entering rick perry and joe biden territory there.
Post edited by the penguin at 11/17/2011 6:41:45 PM
_______________________
Originally posted by: the wierdo
There's nothing like a little child molestation to bring people together and rise above the partisanship Originally posted by: Pudd¿nheäd
ive been wanting coq for some time now, and im goin for it on sunday! Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ
kok. i want kok. lots of kok.
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Nathan Bedford Forrest
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:41 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
Originally posted by: (SF) DirtyRatFink
Originally posted by: questionmark
I don't disagree. I just wanted to highlight that most of the founding fathers wouldn't necessarily agree with libertarian ideology if they were alive today. It seemed like you were defending libertarianism on the basis that the founding fathers would largely agree with modern libertarian ideas.
I would like some evidence on why they would not agree. Instead of just taking your word for it.
No kidding. Libertarian ideology is based off of the philosophical movement known as the Age of Enlightenment or the Age of Reason, as Thomas Paine called it, during which the American Revolution took place, and of which Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin were major contributors, while James Madison, Patrick Henry, Sam Adams, John Taylor of Caroline, St. George Tucker, and George Mason, among many others, including the Federalists John Adams and George Washington, were also influenced by and influential on the Enlightenment.
And though he wasn't an American, I think it's worth noting that Adam Smith and his book, "The Wealth of Nations" is also a huge part of the Enlightenment movement and a core basis of libertarian ideology.
I guess it wasn't such a great idea considering where we are now. You guys are like old dude's telling the kids to get off the grass. Those ideas are long gone. The good news is you are still more free than most people in this world. Why cry sooooo much?
The Enlightenment didn't lead us to where we are now. The abandonment of the Enlightenment ideology and the subsequent creation of a large central state, just like the one's we left over in Europe, is why we are where we are now (thanks, Abe, Teddy, Woodrow, and Franklin).
The fact that people still exist who believe in those ideas, and even more so, that there is a major presidential candidate who espouses those ideas openly inside the American police state should be sufficient evidence that those ideas are not long gone. If anything, they are on the way back.
My assumption is that the ideas you believe are not superior if the majority want something else. Aren't you the arrogant fascist dictating that people are too stupid to understand why your ideas are better?
I don't dictate anything. I make my case. People either understand it or they don't. I also criticize the establishment from my point of view. As a result, I have a shitload of criticisms.
And no, there is nothing fascist about me. I don't espouse national socialism, racial/religious superiority, any form of nationalism, I'm not a militarist, I don't believe in forcing my views on others, and I'm not an imperialist.
_________________
See through the propaganda. Stop empowering and enriching the state by cheering its wars. Set aside the television talking points. Look at the world anew, without the prejudices of the past, and without favoring your own government’s version of things. Be decent. Be human. Do not be deceived by the Joe Bidens, the John McCains, the Barack Obamas and Hillary Clintons. Reject the biggest government program of them all. Peace builds. War destroys.
-Lew Rockwell
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Stryk
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:43 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Stryk
Originally posted by: Cocytus
Originally posted by: Stryk
Originally posted by: burn!
Originally posted by: Killet
Newt! Obama two terms it is, then.
The only person who can beat Obama is Cain. Every other Republican is too much of a Republican and Ron Paul is too fucking crazy for America.
It has to be Cain because he is black. Obama will play the down and out black guy from the ghetto who never got a chance and his first 4 years are proof of that. Nobody wanted to help him because he's black.
All the Republican party can do now is run a black guy and hope the people are to stupid to realize that he's Republican.
Ain't America grand. Cain lost my interest because he has one of the worst run campaigns ever.
They knew about the bimbos 10 days before it went public but failed to not only prepare for it, but get ahead of it. Then the foreign affairs foible.
The only explanation is that he hired a bunch of (1) yes men or (2) incompetents on his campaign staff. I suspect #1. As of right now, I'll pass.
Show me one person who is perfect and I'll vote for him or her. Look at Obama, he's a fucking joke. I'm telling you right now that if we run a white Republican we will lose. We need a woman, black or minority! Haven't you noticed how hard the liberals go after a Republican when they are a minority or female? They don't want them in the race. Hell, Palin would kick Obama's ass.
Actually running someone like you say would be an obvious case of identity politics and unlike what happened with Obama, Republicans will be criticized for it.
It hilarious the attack job they did on Cain before and after they got their bimbos for ammunition. Station after station deferred to their Black political report to carry the negative stories.
The democrats and the media will pat themselves on the back for voting in a black man and will turn it into a negative if the republicans do it. Don't expect any extra points for running anyone like you listed.
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Nathan Bedford Forrest
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:43 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: burn!
Newt would fucking annihilate him in the debates.
And once elected, Newt would pursue the opposite ideology that he sold to the masses during the campaign. That dude is a total fake, a liar, and depraved of any sense of morality, religious or otherwise.
In short, Newt is the same as Obama. Or Bush. Or Clinton.
_________________
See through the propaganda. Stop empowering and enriching the state by cheering its wars. Set aside the television talking points. Look at the world anew, without the prejudices of the past, and without favoring your own government’s version of things. Be decent. Be human. Do not be deceived by the Joe Bidens, the John McCains, the Barack Obamas and Hillary Clintons. Reject the biggest government program of them all. Peace builds. War destroys.
-Lew Rockwell
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Nathan Bedford Forrest
TeamWarfare Vet
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| 11-17-2011 06:46 PM / profile
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Originally posted by: the penguin
Originally posted by: Nathan Bedford Forrest
And though he wasn't an American, I think it's worth noting that Adam Smith and his book, "The Wealth of Nations" is also a huge part of the Enlightenment movement and a core basis of libertarian ideology.
the unabridged version of that book is unfortunately quite cumbersome. especially with the specific examples from his time. (note: i have not read the entire book)
also, have you read smith's theory of moral sentiments or any of david hume's writings?
Nope. I've read a lot about Hume and Smith in a book called "How the Scots Invented the Modern World and Everything In It" but haven't gotten around to reading any of their stuff in depth.
I have so much stuff to read...
_________________
See through the propaganda. Stop empowering and enriching the state by cheering its wars. Set aside the television talking points. Look at the world anew, without the prejudices of the past, and without favoring your own government’s version of things. Be decent. Be human. Do not be deceived by the Joe Bidens, the John McCains, the Barack Obamas and Hillary Clintons. Reject the biggest government program of them all. Peace builds. War destroys.
-Lew Rockwell
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